Subjects: TikTok
BRIAN CARLTON:
To discuss the issue from the other side of the House is Karen Andrews who is the federal shadow home affairs minister and she joins me now. If I can just click that button will be right. Karen Andrews, good afternoon. Welcome to 2CC.
KAREN ANDREWS:
Hello, how are you?
BRIAN CARLTON:
I’m very well. Does the opposition support this ban?
KAREN ANDREWS:
Yes, absolutely. In fact, it was some work that was done by Senator James Patterson now quite some time ago that I believe has led to the review being conducted in the first place and the announcement about the ban on devices that are issued by Commonwealth departments and agencies. So, yes, absolutely, we support this. We would have liked it a little bit earlier, but we are supportive of it.
BRIAN CARLTON:
The Government’s claiming via the Attorney-General, Mark Dreyfus, that the ban would come into effect as soon as practicable. You’re suggesting that time has passed?
KAREN ANDREWS:
Yes, absolutely. It should already be in place and I would assume that at least the very senior ministers in the government would already have made sure that they removed TikTok from their devices if the app was actually there. But, I think that this needs to be implemented immediately.
BRIAN CARLTON:
The there will be exemptions for those people who say, for example, one of the criticisms of modern politics, particularly of your side of politics is its inability to connect with younger people. Will that be hampered by this TikTok ban?
KAREN ANDREWS:
Well, I think that we’ve got to look at the best possible way to, uh, connect with people. Now, I have some very serious concerns about TikTok in terms of the data that is being captured, and it goes to things and, and I heard what you were saying about photos, family structures, lifestyle, those sorts of things. But it also collects some data on the characteristics of your voice, biometric data, contactless calendars. There’s a whole range of data that is being collected there that I think is, is really concerning. So I think that what the government needs to do very clearly is implement that ban on government issued devices, and make sure that they implement an education strategy as soon as they possibly can so that young people understand what data is being collected by a foreign government.
BRIAN CARLTON:
I wonder whether the young people actually care about any of that. How do we make them care?
KAREN ANDREWS:
Look. And I think that’s, that’s a very fair, uh, comment to make, a question to ask, because I think many people would say, well, I don’t care what information anyone have about me because I’ve got nothing to hide. And I understand that view. However, people need to understand that in the digital age in which we all live now, uh, the information that becomes available through legitimate sources or illegitimate art sources can be used, um, for, for a range of things that are seriously gonna impact on our way of life.
BRIAN CARLTON:
If you’re a media manager, sometimes just plucking one out of the air here, if you’re a media manager for, say, a federal minister, and that minister is a person who uses TikTok to talk to potentially younger Australians will they be exempt, as you read the rule change or not?
KAREN ANDREWS:
Well, it’s not really clear what the form of exemptions are going to be, and I would hate there to be a policy being put in place that immediately has a range of exemptions that it will be increasingly easy to access. Now, as politicians, yes, we do want to engage with all parts of our community, and that includes young people as well as older Australians, but there is more than one way to be able to do that. And whilst TikTok is the app of the moment, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other ways that we could and should be engaging with young people in particular.
BRIAN CARLTON:
If you’re a media manager, sometimes just plucking one out of the air here, if you’re a media manager for, say, a federal minister, and that minister is a person who uses TikTok to talk to potentially younger Australians will they be exempt, as you read the rule change or not?
KAREN ANDREWS:
Well, that’s the information that has been made public. And I would encourage people to go and, um, look at the terms and conditions that are on TikTok themselves, which are quite extensive, but unfortunately, very few people actually do go to that level of detail. But the advice that I’ve been given is that TikTok is able to access information about the other apps that you are running on your device and exactly what information they’re able to get from those apps is not clear, but we know they can access that. So we know what they know, what apps are on your mobile phone, for example. They know how often those apps are running, and that’s the first part of the information that they will be able to access to look at what people are doing, what their characteristics are, what their behaviours are.
BRIAN CARLTON:
Yeah, things like yes, you’re quite right, behaviours, it’s the patterns. So for example, if you leave home at around about 8:00 every morning and they can and you’ve got your map app open, they can see where you’re going, you know where your first appointment is, where your second appointment is, and they can track you quite literally without even just simply by the TikTok app in the background of your phone spying on all the other apps. Look, I don’t think you’re going to get to all that. The government will get too much pushback from this What’s the vibe around those in government or in the public service who use TikTok have TikTok Are they expressing to you any disappointment, anger or they sort of understand why this is necessary?
KAREN ANDREWS:
Look, the people who’ve spoken to me are very understanding of the fact that, you know, there are security risks with having TikTok on your phone, particularly when you look at the detail. It is on the contact lists of politicians and their staff. So they are quite extensive the information that’s available there. So I think that we tend to have as politicians an acute awareness of national security issues. So I think there’s a level of acceptance. What I want to see is also a bit of a focus on some key industries in Australia, so defence industry, representatives and employees, what’s happening with our resources sector, critical minerals. There’s a whole range of sectors, and they’re pretty much defined in critical infrastructure legislation. Now, anyone I think who works in those areas needs to be very mindful of national security and the information that they have on their phone and who and how it can be accessed.
BRIAN CARLTON:
Look, it’s I have had conversations with journalists who have the TikTok app on their phone. And I’ve said, are you concerned at all about some of your private and conversations with contacts with people who are leaking you information, those sorts of things. Do you have any concern that ultimately those people could be exposed by that and they sort of shrug their shoulders and go, oh, well, no, not really. They probably should, shouldn’t they?
KAREN ANDREWS:
Oh, look, I think that there’s a lot of people that should be very concerned about information that they put on apps and that information going into the public domain and there’s lots of things that I would discourage people from ever putting into a message that alone saying.
BRIAN CARLTON:
Yes, indeed. We’ve had a very good example of that recently. Let’s not go there. One of the outstanding issues to my way of thinking is the government employs, if that’s the correct term, many contractors who operate in all sorts of portfolio areas Will the contractors be compelled to delete their TikTok apps to?
KAREN ANDREWS:
Look, it’s not clear because my reading of the media release from the Attorney General is that it’s prohibiting TikTok on devices that are issued by commonwealth departments and agencies. Now, depending on the status of the contractor, it’s probably likely that that contractor has their own electronic device. So it’s not issued by a Commonwealth department or by an agency. The agencies and the departments are more than capable of implementing such a policy that is pretty much core business for a commonwealth department or agency. So I would just encourage them to work out quickly how they’re going to implement this and to get started.
BRIAN CARLTON:
There’s a potential hole there, isn’t there?
KAREN ANDREWS:
Absolutely.
BRIAN CARLTON:
They need to have a look at that because, you know, the federal government compelling an organisation that is contracting to the government to force their employees to lose the app is going to be a hard task. You almost need to do it on an organisation by organisation basis.
KAREN ANDREWS:
Yes, absolutely. But look, the agencies and the departments are more than capable of implementing such a policy that is pretty much core business for a Commonwealth Department or ageny. So I would just encourage them to work out quickly how they’re going to implement this and to get started.
BRIAN CARLTON:
Appreciate your time today.
ENDS